I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
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I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by John Grubber Thu 23 Mar 2017 - 2:36
Watched some groups play the games I am interested in and man oh man, they were real slogs. My main observations:
1. All were really slow to play (Combat, progress room to room etc.)
2. Rules were overly complicated (They are Dungeon Crawls, ffs!)
3. Too much going on at once. Track this on your card, this on the board, roll that dice etc. makes the experience a drag.
Did WH Quest or other games really go so slow ages ago? AM I misremembering?
1. All were really slow to play (Combat, progress room to room etc.)
2. Rules were overly complicated (They are Dungeon Crawls, ffs!)
3. Too much going on at once. Track this on your card, this on the board, roll that dice etc. makes the experience a drag.
Did WH Quest or other games really go so slow ages ago? AM I misremembering?
John Grubber- Posts : 43
Join date : 2016-02-13
Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by Hobb Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 13:43
There IS deep wisdom in children's reluctance to play violent, rule-heavy games. I have spent many moons pondering this topic in doing D&D research. Here are some thoughts:
1) The whole of nerd culture (video games, RPGs, anime) are based on degrees of sadism and machismo that many people properly reject.
2) ALL the old RPGs were 'broken' in many core ways. It was the friendship, 10 pounds of duck-tape (aka house rules) and sheer enthusiasm that allowed them to be played at all.
3) The advent of PCs made all 'simulation'-heavy RPGs irrelevant. 85% of RPG rule-sets are far better run by computers. If it wasn't for point #1, this would be obvious.
4) The core hack'n'slash attitude comes from the inter-war American pulp/weird/fantasy scene of the 1930s (Lovecraft/Howard), the cynical, jaded fantasies of the 1950s (Vance/Platt) and American war-gaming scene of the 1960s. This is not everyone's cup of tea...
I read a blog of a father teaching his young kids 'old school' D&D. After months of slogging through murders and traps, he finally had a glowing report of his two kids carrying out a perfect raid on gnolls inside a desert tomb. He was so happy with his kids but the game summary read like a horrific Special Ops raid in Afghanistan: slit throats, disarming traps, exploiting found intelligence, rough interrogations, a final fireball to kill any survivors.
Fantasy can have many touches of horror but D&D's Vietnam-era grimness (and Tolkien WWI grimness) have become deep traps for the imagination.
5) Much of the Nostalgia around RPGs comes from the social dynamics NOT the actual boring game-play. 1980s RPGs were about teenage boys creating their own social contracts (you be GM and I'll be an Elf..) OUTSIDE of their parents' guidance. It is their foundation in the male teenage pack not the rules or setting that made RPGs so powerful. There is no way to re-create this for your own kids.
6) The challenge is too save the best elements of RPGs and junk the 80%+ that does not work. The simple question to me is a) "What game-system allows the good social feeling ALREADY present to be expressed?" b) "What game-system allows the new positive social feeling to be created?"
I think our backgrounds put us in a position to do this. The over-emphasis on simulationist rules and mass murder must be discarded - yet there is a 'masculine' adventuring core that should be preserved. The genius of the first D&D designers was to 'domesticate' straight war-games into RPGs. There is still another level of domestication needed.
1) The whole of nerd culture (video games, RPGs, anime) are based on degrees of sadism and machismo that many people properly reject.
2) ALL the old RPGs were 'broken' in many core ways. It was the friendship, 10 pounds of duck-tape (aka house rules) and sheer enthusiasm that allowed them to be played at all.
3) The advent of PCs made all 'simulation'-heavy RPGs irrelevant. 85% of RPG rule-sets are far better run by computers. If it wasn't for point #1, this would be obvious.
4) The core hack'n'slash attitude comes from the inter-war American pulp/weird/fantasy scene of the 1930s (Lovecraft/Howard), the cynical, jaded fantasies of the 1950s (Vance/Platt) and American war-gaming scene of the 1960s. This is not everyone's cup of tea...
I read a blog of a father teaching his young kids 'old school' D&D. After months of slogging through murders and traps, he finally had a glowing report of his two kids carrying out a perfect raid on gnolls inside a desert tomb. He was so happy with his kids but the game summary read like a horrific Special Ops raid in Afghanistan: slit throats, disarming traps, exploiting found intelligence, rough interrogations, a final fireball to kill any survivors.
Fantasy can have many touches of horror but D&D's Vietnam-era grimness (and Tolkien WWI grimness) have become deep traps for the imagination.
5) Much of the Nostalgia around RPGs comes from the social dynamics NOT the actual boring game-play. 1980s RPGs were about teenage boys creating their own social contracts (you be GM and I'll be an Elf..) OUTSIDE of their parents' guidance. It is their foundation in the male teenage pack not the rules or setting that made RPGs so powerful. There is no way to re-create this for your own kids.
6) The challenge is too save the best elements of RPGs and junk the 80%+ that does not work. The simple question to me is a) "What game-system allows the good social feeling ALREADY present to be expressed?" b) "What game-system allows the new positive social feeling to be created?"
I think our backgrounds put us in a position to do this. The over-emphasis on simulationist rules and mass murder must be discarded - yet there is a 'masculine' adventuring core that should be preserved. The genius of the first D&D designers was to 'domesticate' straight war-games into RPGs. There is still another level of domestication needed.
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Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by John Grubber Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 20:52
Hopefully my replies within work...
Agreed. I figure if I can't boil it down to a 1 page rules set its going to be too slow. To me, at its core is the collaborative storytelling- 'guided improv' if you will. I think a big part of the 80% to junk is the content- too many spells, too many items, too many monsters, but they are products designed to sell, and I bought many an accessory in my day. Too many stats as well. A few core ones should be enough, and you negotiate or roll for skill use based on them.
Hobb wrote:There IS deep wisdom in children's reluctance to play violent, rule-heavy games. I have spent many moons pondering this topic in doing D&D research. Here are some thoughts:
1) The whole of nerd culture (video games, RPGs, anime) are based on degrees of sadism and machismo that many people properly reject.
I agree with the former, but not the latter- apparently D&D, (and all the other forms of violent entertainment) are surging in sales. I wish they rejected it, but it seems that that they have embraced them. Who knows though, we played with GiJoe and RPGs and turned out okay-ish... ;-P Nerd culture being so popular (mainly due to nerd blackface on Big Bang Theory) has made certain thing socially acceptable to talk about.
2) ALL the old RPGs were 'broken' in many core ways. It was the friendship, 10 pounds of duck-tape (aka house rules) and sheer enthusiasm that allowed them to be played at all.
And copious amounts of pepsi, chips and sugar that made them so enjoyable... thats the part that annoys me is the abundance of rules that things get (and Got) buried under- for me the chewy bits (the world building and imaginative parts) were always way less interesting than the crunchy bits (rules and mechanics.) Fairplay by consensus is the best system, with a little dicerolling to make things random and unpredictable...
3) The advent of PCs made all 'simulation'-heavy RPGs irrelevant. 85% of RPG rule-sets are far better run by computers. If it wasn't for point #1, this would be obvious.
True, I do wonder why I never had much interest in computer RPGs- i played Diablo, and a few of the other old school ones, but the MMORPGs never appealed to me at all- I didn't like openness and the free-formedness (or maybe I just was scared to talk to strangers...). I never liked modules either for that matter- i guess it felt like someone elses story, not ours or my own. It was a product, so it left me cold.
4) The core hack'n'slash attitude comes from the inter-war American pulp/weird/fantasy scene of the 1930s (Lovecraft/Howard), the cynical, jaded fantasies of the 1950s (Vance/Platt) and American war-gaming scene of the 1960s. This is not everyone's cup of tea...
Not familiar with Vance or Platt, but I guess it had to come from somewhere. I never had much interest in being a 'hero' in games, I just liked a good yarn, some motivation and a dose of random unpredictability. Power gamers (I tried a few groups back during university and grad school) were painful to be part of because it was all rules-lawyering and killing- and they took it so seriously. No joking around, so side talk at the table. Worst of all, no story- no one to rescue, no town to defend, etc. it was basically contract merc work monster hunting- I had forgotten the amoral approach some of the group had until now. I lasted about 3 sessions...
I read a blog of a father teaching his young kids 'old school' D&D. After months of slogging through murders and traps, he finally had a glowing report of his two kids carrying out a perfect raid on gnolls inside a desert tomb. He was so happy with his kids but the game summary read like a horrific Special Ops raid in Afghanistan: slit throats, disarming traps, exploiting found intelligence, rough interrogations, a final fireball to kill any survivors.
Jesus. I never looked at it that way. I always preferred a bit of motivation beyond kill the beast and steal the loot. I guess its the writer in me. Give me a plot or mission and I am happy. If bodies happen, so be it, but if they don't that makes it even better because it was probably more challenging to do.
Fantasy can have many touches of horror but D&D's Vietnam-era grimness (and Tolkien WWI grimness) have become deep traps for the imagination.
5) Much of the Nostalgia around RPGs comes from the social dynamics NOT the actual boring game-play. 1980s RPGs were about teenage boys creating their own social contracts (you be GM and I'll be an Elf..) OUTSIDE of their parents' guidance. It is their foundation in the male teenage pack not the rules or setting that made RPGs so powerful. There is no way to re-create this for your own kids.
Fair enough, I am 'the man' so to speak, so by definition they can't be rebelling if i am guiding them,. I just want them off the bloody electronic devices...
6) The challenge is too save the best elements of RPGs and junk the 80%+ that does not work. The simple question to me is a) "What game-system allows the good social feeling ALREADY present to be expressed?" b) "What game-system allows the new positive social feeling to be created?"
I think our backgrounds put us in a position to do this. The over-emphasis on simulationist rules and mass murder must be discarded - yet there is a 'masculine' adventuring core that should be preserved. The genius of the first D&D designers was to 'domesticate' straight war-games into RPGs. There is still another level of domestication needed.
Agreed. I figure if I can't boil it down to a 1 page rules set its going to be too slow. To me, at its core is the collaborative storytelling- 'guided improv' if you will. I think a big part of the 80% to junk is the content- too many spells, too many items, too many monsters, but they are products designed to sell, and I bought many an accessory in my day. Too many stats as well. A few core ones should be enough, and you negotiate or roll for skill use based on them.
John Grubber- Posts : 43
Join date : 2016-02-13
Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by Hobb Mon 27 Mar 2017 - 17:32
No disagreement that violent nerd culture sells - now more than ever - but I still question if kids have the masochism to play games that are structurally sadistic: PC games without any saves, boardgames that require a day to set-up all the parts and a month to finish, RPG character creation that resembles filling out a college application, ect... People want to enjoy simulating sadistic acts but I'm not sure if they are willing to suffer for it.
Perhaps we are not looking at this all backwards - maybe we should just set up an old-school dungeon and WE play it. Let the kids decide if they want to join this weird game the greybeards still find cool.
Each of us can design our own dungeon level so that the burden doesn't fall on any one person. Just have one or two design rules (i.e each level must have a staircase down and one switch that controls a feature on the [1-3 previous 4-6 next] level - ect...)
It can be as old-school as we want. Amoral, absurd, lethal. Everyone can take henchmen, so their will be plenty of red-shirts. The old D&D is a hell of a drug and it's hard to get out of the system.
Perhaps we are not looking at this all backwards - maybe we should just set up an old-school dungeon and WE play it. Let the kids decide if they want to join this weird game the greybeards still find cool.
Each of us can design our own dungeon level so that the burden doesn't fall on any one person. Just have one or two design rules (i.e each level must have a staircase down and one switch that controls a feature on the [1-3 previous 4-6 next] level - ect...)
It can be as old-school as we want. Amoral, absurd, lethal. Everyone can take henchmen, so their will be plenty of red-shirts. The old D&D is a hell of a drug and it's hard to get out of the system.
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Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by John Grubber Mon 27 Mar 2017 - 18:14
I was thinking of this very thing- then I saw the prices of the new D&D books... I wish I still had my stuff- its all gone. My idiot brother donated it rather than ask me if i wanted it back.
What system would you want to use? 1st edition? The new basic starter set? Palladium? WHQuest?
As far as kids and masochism go- I have seen no shortage of a thirst for violent entertainment, indeed they seem much more casual about it, especially sexual violence references. The real thing they are reluctant to do is anything that seems remotely effortful- reading something to create a character etc. would be too much work for them- they really cannot see more than a step down the road. The inability to delay gratification is pathological. They want the payoff, the money shot, now. If I showed you the dcline of textbook detail over the past several decades...
What system would you want to use? 1st edition? The new basic starter set? Palladium? WHQuest?
As far as kids and masochism go- I have seen no shortage of a thirst for violent entertainment, indeed they seem much more casual about it, especially sexual violence references. The real thing they are reluctant to do is anything that seems remotely effortful- reading something to create a character etc. would be too much work for them- they really cannot see more than a step down the road. The inability to delay gratification is pathological. They want the payoff, the money shot, now. If I showed you the dcline of textbook detail over the past several decades...
John Grubber- Posts : 43
Join date : 2016-02-13
Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by Hobb Tue 28 Mar 2017 - 14:26
The same holds for many university textbooks - I get the feeling that education is going to be 're-formatted' soon to be much more web/'social media'-based - but let's not get distracted.
A giant list of D&D clones can be found at D&D Retroclones - Taxidermic Owlbear. One of the burdens of the modern era is choice. There are rulesets that range from the 0ed D&D rulebooks to modern rules full of innovations.
If you are still looking for an introductory dungeoncrawl ruleset, I would recommend 'Dungeon Squad'. Super simple, nice use of the weird dice, and right into the action in minutes: dungeon_squad.pdf (A few variants can also be found on the big list).
A giant list of D&D clones can be found at D&D Retroclones - Taxidermic Owlbear. One of the burdens of the modern era is choice. There are rulesets that range from the 0ed D&D rulebooks to modern rules full of innovations.
If you are still looking for an introductory dungeoncrawl ruleset, I would recommend 'Dungeon Squad'. Super simple, nice use of the weird dice, and right into the action in minutes: dungeon_squad.pdf (A few variants can also be found on the big list).
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Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by John Grubber Sat 1 Apr 2017 - 14:14
Some very interesting ideas in the different games out there. i wonder why people are so hung up on rules and mechanics though- i guess that is a holdover from true tabletop games with opponents rather than collaborative storytelling.
With art classes, I find rigid quotas or limits (colours/shapes etc.) creates the problem that stimulates the creativity to solve it, but in games having a rule or rolls and modifiers for everything is just tiresome. Given the sales of books though, I guess I am in the minority.
Been doing a TON of drawing lately- monsters, dungeon doors, kid heroes, starting on tiles now. Going to use a children's illustration colouring style (pencil crayon and watercolour) as opposed to inking i think. I'll have to post a sample or two when i get some coloured.
With art classes, I find rigid quotas or limits (colours/shapes etc.) creates the problem that stimulates the creativity to solve it, but in games having a rule or rolls and modifiers for everything is just tiresome. Given the sales of books though, I guess I am in the minority.
Been doing a TON of drawing lately- monsters, dungeon doors, kid heroes, starting on tiles now. Going to use a children's illustration colouring style (pencil crayon and watercolour) as opposed to inking i think. I'll have to post a sample or two when i get some coloured.
John Grubber- Posts : 43
Join date : 2016-02-13
Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by Hobb Sun 2 Apr 2017 - 16:40
The compulsion of many RPGers to keep re-creating slight variations of D&D has been noted.
Ron Edward wrote about the "fantasy heart-breakers" of the 1990s where a slew of independent game designers valiantly slogged through the self-publishing process to produce their own RPGs - all of which that offered little more than minor variation in D&D's tone and rules. The eras of "open source d20" and the "old school renaissance" were similar - tons of admirable self-publishing yet surprisingly little evolution in gameplay or theme given how much freedom RPGs and fantasy could allow.
I think that the symbols used in fantasy (monsters, magic, heroism) are so powerful that simply re-creating or re-ordering them is psychologically satisfying. In a materialist culture it is one few outlets for this.
But every time I flip through a new monster manual and find that it is a pictureless tome of 'stat blocks' my heart breaks a little. Heavy rules and mechanics far too often kill the ephemeral core of fantasy that draws all of us to this genre. Yet having no rules is a formless freedom that can also be deadly to the imagination.
So please post any pictures. Where the nib touches the paper is where fantasy is eternally found.
Ron Edward wrote about the "fantasy heart-breakers" of the 1990s where a slew of independent game designers valiantly slogged through the self-publishing process to produce their own RPGs - all of which that offered little more than minor variation in D&D's tone and rules. The eras of "open source d20" and the "old school renaissance" were similar - tons of admirable self-publishing yet surprisingly little evolution in gameplay or theme given how much freedom RPGs and fantasy could allow.
I think that the symbols used in fantasy (monsters, magic, heroism) are so powerful that simply re-creating or re-ordering them is psychologically satisfying. In a materialist culture it is one few outlets for this.
But every time I flip through a new monster manual and find that it is a pictureless tome of 'stat blocks' my heart breaks a little. Heavy rules and mechanics far too often kill the ephemeral core of fantasy that draws all of us to this genre. Yet having no rules is a formless freedom that can also be deadly to the imagination.
So please post any pictures. Where the nib touches the paper is where fantasy is eternally found.
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Re: I am Grateful for Internet (Free Game Instructions and Gameplay Videos...)
by John Grubber Mon 3 Apr 2017 - 15:29
Its funny, I look through the new monster books, and feel the same way. Thats actually what i liked about the Monstrous Compendium binders- not the most durable, but lots of text to go along with the numbers. I was always more interested in how to use the monster to tell a story, not in how to kill it or kill with it.
I think I am trapped in the box though- I am not sure what else could be done with the experience or gameplay other than stripping it down as much as possible. More rules slows things down, fewer (in a way) offers less flexibility for creative players. I think it has to be about mutual respect between players, GM and the game experience itself, so that none is abused by the others. Rules keep egomaniac power gamers in check, but also bring out the rules lawyers to push the boundaries. A bit of a gordian knot...
As far as monsters go, there are soooooo many now, but they aren't really much to write home about. Often they are EXXXXTREEEMME!!!! variations on a familiar foe, or something so niche-y that they are not really viable. I think MM1 and 2 and FF from the old days covered everything you need to fight. Updated artwork is cool, but in a way, spoils the imagination too, since it does all the work.
Working on hero kid artwork today- taking a break from monsters. Have all the classics sketched, multiple poses for many. At this point, i am looking to source some 3mm chipboard to that I can make figures that stand up.
My plan is to do the heroes up that the kids want to use, then the Goblinoids (Goblin, Hobgoblin, ogre) a 'monster' or two and some vermin. Standard rescue mission into some caves - maybe kids being held as mine slaves.
Been doing a lot of adventure design reading- going to keep it to 1 wilderness monster at night while they are camping out tracking the captives, and maybe 5 rooms/encounters. Throw in some skill work (finding secret door, jumping a chasm, find/disarm some traps/chests) etc.
I am intrigued by the idea of 'dashboards' for characters, to help keep things organized. I also like the thought of a pegboard system as well to track hitpoints, xp and spell points. Visual and easy to follow.
I think I am trapped in the box though- I am not sure what else could be done with the experience or gameplay other than stripping it down as much as possible. More rules slows things down, fewer (in a way) offers less flexibility for creative players. I think it has to be about mutual respect between players, GM and the game experience itself, so that none is abused by the others. Rules keep egomaniac power gamers in check, but also bring out the rules lawyers to push the boundaries. A bit of a gordian knot...
As far as monsters go, there are soooooo many now, but they aren't really much to write home about. Often they are EXXXXTREEEMME!!!! variations on a familiar foe, or something so niche-y that they are not really viable. I think MM1 and 2 and FF from the old days covered everything you need to fight. Updated artwork is cool, but in a way, spoils the imagination too, since it does all the work.
Working on hero kid artwork today- taking a break from monsters. Have all the classics sketched, multiple poses for many. At this point, i am looking to source some 3mm chipboard to that I can make figures that stand up.
My plan is to do the heroes up that the kids want to use, then the Goblinoids (Goblin, Hobgoblin, ogre) a 'monster' or two and some vermin. Standard rescue mission into some caves - maybe kids being held as mine slaves.
Been doing a lot of adventure design reading- going to keep it to 1 wilderness monster at night while they are camping out tracking the captives, and maybe 5 rooms/encounters. Throw in some skill work (finding secret door, jumping a chasm, find/disarm some traps/chests) etc.
I am intrigued by the idea of 'dashboards' for characters, to help keep things organized. I also like the thought of a pegboard system as well to track hitpoints, xp and spell points. Visual and easy to follow.
John Grubber- Posts : 43
Join date : 2016-02-13
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