The ultimate question, and the ultimate test.

Through man's history in this world. Civilization has failed to answer one question. To pass one test. And I come here before you today brothers and sisters (if there are any sisters ) And I ask you to lend me your aid, Nay Lend me your minds! to accomplish this age-old test. What is this test I speak of? Well first let me lay down the foundations of why I ask.


As some of you may know I am deeply in love with role-playing, though I have only played Dungeons & Dragons on occasion I am deeply embroiled in a love affair with his sexier, more mature older brother, Pathfinder. And it turns out I may just be entering what is called as a kingdom builder campaign. As the title suggests it is when a adventuring group decides to settle down and build a kingdom. This could be accomplished in a variety of ways but our scenario will be colonizing an isolated continent around the size of Australia off the coast of the Oriental continent.

And I being my suspicious and ever watchful self was able to secure the position of ruler for said expedition. And so now my half-Drow sorcerer has the duty of shaping the laws and cultures of his new kingdom. Modelling him after myself he is an idealist and leans Toward socialism. But what we all must remember is that this is a brutal world very much modelled after the Middle Ages. Life is not Always pleasant for people who don't have money or power. And though there are many different ideologies in the world it is still an ancient setting, with magic Of course.

AND SO! I come before you and ask you to help me create a perfect society! a perfect government!!!!!

I wish to create what is usually called A Magocracy. "An individual or group with potent magical power leads the kingdom and promotes the spread of magical and mundane knowledge and education. Those with magical abilities often enjoy favored status in the kingdom. Modifiers: Lore +2, Productivity –1, Society –1." Because my character believes that through the advancements and sheer flexibility of magic he can create a stable, Defensible kingdom.

But more importantly I need assistance in shaping the culture, laws and society That will shape the kingdom. Now hopefully everyone finds this an interesting enough discussion topic that I'll be able to fill out all the gaps that any of us could possibly think of! I'm going to be creating a list of all the details I will put into the kingdom just below this Post and I'll be updating it every time we decide on a new law or custom.

So our discussion topics can lean anywhere to nobility, what type should we use if any at all Too Military protocol and Army composition.

Name Pending

Right now I'm working on an Ars Magica setting in Dalmatia/Adriatic and I've had to dive into the history of Venice because it is the dominate power in the Adriatic sea. Venice must win some kind of longevity award as it begins in my Penguin atlas in 700ad and does not get conquered until 1790s when Napoleon finally take it. That's 1000 years of no sacks, no coups, no civil wars, in fact, no change of government at all because the core of ruling families that were there in 700 are still there a thousand years later, they just let a few other families join.

Venice is the creepiest city: built on a lagoon, full of sea-birds, waterways instead of roads, full with loot from a 1000 years of sacking and trade, people wear masks 6 months a year(!), they have a winged lion as there symbol, deep contacts with the Byzantine (their protector until Venice sacks it in the 4th Crusade) and Islam, huge maritime might, known for their greed, quick tempers and love of conspiracy. Every building is built of a foundation of poles and marble slabs over mud swarming with giant eels and fish.

Government Type: Oligarchy - a few noble families rule with absolute power in secrecy. Strangely stable because all the ruling families are permanent and so they are dedicated not to their own power but the political structure that recognizes them as elites and the Greater Glory of their city.
Laws: Mostly regulating who can mint coins and who can wear masks.
Culture: Known for decadence, courtesans, and greatest market full of wonders from the East.
Foreign policy: plenty of colony/ports along their trade routes so they can safely dock - but no urge to improve their colonies of their subject. This is a straight MERCANTILE empire. Every colony must have a 'Venetian Quarter' with inns, bakers and barbers awaiting their master's arrival.
Military: The world's largest State-run ship-building factory known as the Arsenal. Rowers and oarsmen are chosen by lot from the populace (also some ships filled with debtors). Lots of privateering (i.e sanctioned pirates) when war comes.
Education: Nobles families send their sons to Europe's best schools. Plenty of art and cultural events to show the glory of Venice so the locals are bumpkins but citizens of a Great City,.
Magic: Many ties to the mysterious East - even their Winged Lion is basically a pagan monster converted to Christianity. [Maybe incorporate a Sphinx, Lammasu, Lamia, ect... into your own ruling council]

Remember that 'Geography is Destiny' so my major questions would be:
*What ecosystem & climate are you in - arid Australia?
*Is your main city defendable - island, mountain top, cliffs?
*Who compromises your population (what mix indigenous, settlers, immigrants)?
*Who are the important neighbors - the nearest Empires and any troublesome Barbarian tribes?  
*What is the major source of food and income?

Well Venice is now on my list of places to go! But in all honesty I was hoping to take ideas and concepts from history and mould them into a new, more efficient government. After all this is going to take place In a world almost exactly like D&D.

http://darthsunshine42.deviantart.com/art/Fan-made-Golarion-map-337812221 That's the map of the world were working with. The continent in question is to the bottom right. A landmass consisting both of coastline plains, extensive forests and a massive mountain Range Separating the forest from a desert. The ideal plan is to settle on the more habitable forest portion of the continent.
This is going to be an advanced growth campaign so were going to be starting off with some supplies and a few shiploads of immigrants and colonists. Obviously because human adventurers don't have a few hundred years to build up a glorious city things are going to be a bit more speedy when concerning growth. And so for this campaign the type of succession that the government goes through is going to be less important than the way it's run and the laws that it adheres by.

Just below the tip of the continent there are two rivers that joined to one and then split again and river Way access to a large portion of the northern continent. I'm hoping to settle in between those two rivers.

The continent is largely on colonized and there have been no reports of other humans residing within it. The continent is however home to large varieties of mammoths which have gone extinct in all other parts of the world as well as almost alien -like fauna and flora. We also have it on good word that there are Inactive portals Scattered across the continent but this information will probably only become relevant at a later date.

The nearest Countries are the Dragon empires of tian xia, An Oriental continent where almost all forms of government are led by Dragon dynasties (actual dragons) Luckily they're fairly fractured at the moment So intervention by them of a military nature would be very unlikely.

No What I'm hoping to gather is For us to come up with laws that we think would be most effective. A culture that would benefit the people and a military that would best protect it. An example would be an added bonus of running a very magical oriented kingdom. Attracting a large portion of magic users and offering them particular benefits If they joined the Army would create a very deadly force.

Another example of what I'm thinking is that we implement the Guild system that Was used in the Middle Ages. :all professions must be associated with a guild. Whether it be the fisherman's Guild, the blacksmith's Guild or the Weavers Guild. The guilds are built up around a council of prominent people associated with their particular profession for the purpose of protecting their trade, increasing the prosperity of their members and regulating their members. The Council members do not benefit monetarily of course. A member of the administration oversees each Council to make sure the Council's decisions benefit the government and to properly regulate tax and tariffs. And of course if the government ever needs the services of said profession they can procure them much more effectively. The guilds are answerable to the government and overseen by a particular branch of the government meant to enforce the bureaucratic laws of the government and prevent corruption. Other than that the guilds are supposed to regulate themselves. Nobility are forbidden from being on the Council of any of the guilds.

1) On Fantasy Worlds and Politics

You weren't kidding about it being Australia-like - complete with Outback and Dream(time) Jungles. This sort of quasi-'alternate Earth' setting must be a deeply-held fantasy trope because I found it in early modern fantasy like Conan, Lord of the Rings and the first D&D campaigns. Yet no one openly discusses it - you have to dig to find out that Sauron is supported by the Africans, Mongols and Irish or that Greyhawk is a version of the Great Lakes.

This leads to an interesting moral question. The first D&D campaigns had 'kingdom-building', in 2ed when you got to the higher ranks you automatically got a small keep and we're expected to set up your own fiefdom. It was all very feudal and brutal. From your comments I get the impression you want something closer to actual government, in fact with talk idealism, socialism and "new, more efficient government" you are speaking of something quite different than early D&D. This is good to hear!

The early D&D's model was US expansion into the west: cowboy-adventures kill all the savages (the Indian/Goblinoids) and set-up their own fort. Your Pathfinder model seems like the Victorian Empire: set up a colony in a remote location and nurture it with good governance.

Yet there is a problem to colonizing a quasi-Australia - it brings the baggage of a brutal history of the racist colonizing of real-life Australia. De-populating your Australia - "no reports of other humans" - does not solve it because:
a) non-white population are always portrayed as fantasy races. There will be indigenous inhabitants of some sort because discovering them is 1/2 the fun of fantasy.
b) pretending that the land you want to colonize is completely "uninhabited" is a claim made by most colonizers from Israel to Canada.

Suggestion: There is no use getting too Politically Correct about all this, but I would make an effort to subvert it slightly. Figure out what races will be nearby and work with them in non-exploitative ways. Does some race act as Mammoth-herders - if so cut a deal with them but let them keep their independence. If you find yourself repeatedly slaughtering the local non-humans you may want to rethink your colony.

2) Magical Societies

One of my favorite old D&D articles (from Dragon Magazine) was on how reliable access to the Resurrection spell would topple most existing systems of government and religion. That's just one spell. Imagine Geas or Telepathy in court-room, Create Food in the slums, a criminal with Polymorph, ect.... Paizo has put out a whole book on the subject called "Magical Society: Ecology and Culture"

Magic in fantasy is the equivalent of Technology today - both radically change society and relationship when widely introduced. The difference between cell-phones and telepathy or smart-phones and tri-corders is all blurry. Even if magic is kept the elites this causes problems because a wizard carries around the equivalent of crate of grenades, a handful of LSD, a mind-scanner and a weather-control satellite. Council meeting would be tense.

Suggestion: Choose just a few spells and concentrate on how they would change society. You are using a Mark of Justice (aka high-tech branding), now choose a few more. Maybe guilds get access to a type of spell in return for their loyalty. Maybe there is a ceremonial day where Bless is cast over the city. It has been a long-time since I've seen a spell list but I'd enjoying contemplating the sociological ramifications of a spell. 

Remember that magic-heavy societies should be a little bit freaky. The first D&D wizards were just Heavy Weapons experts (fireball as Light Antitank Weapon ect...) but magic offers so much weirdness that is shame to use it this way. Maybe councils are held in the ethereal realm or dreamscape. Maybe polymorph is all too common. A touch of weirdness goes a long way.

The flipside of this is that all magic is illegal - except for what the Council wields...

3) Guilds

You don't often hear about guild during the colonization phase of society - but given the accelerated nature of the game it works. And guilds can be fun - that's just as important as realism. Guilds come it a wide variety. In Constantinople 'guilds' meant you had to live in a certain quarter of the city, the position was inherited, what you could make was strictly set and so were the prices you could charge. Otherwise you owned you own tools and set your own hours. In Florence, guilds were a basic social unit, they determined what celebrations you went to, who you married, and how you voted because guilds dominated the city council. The guild system you describe is fairly advanced with a governing bureaucracy and checks to prevent overt political control.

Suggestion: Keep guilds interesting and colourful. Make them compete to throw the best party or collaborate on some giant art/magic item that requires their skills. Make them dress differently or live in certain quarters. Does the River Pilots guild need water-breathing necklaces? Does the military guild need healing potions?

oh I can just tell this is going to get very entertaining! I completely agree with your observation of this world similarities to our own, in fact Arcadia the westernmost continent is pretty much a Copy and past replica of North And South America. In fact many of the empires in the Inner Sea region Have begun small colonies in Arcadia.

This world is filled with many different places to be colonized so one of the reasons why the continent of Sarusan has been chosen is because it is by all intents and purposes a clean slate. the only attempts to colonize the landmass where Almost 1000 years ago. See my character is a revolutionist. He has spent a good hundred years already travelling the world and observing the way different cultures and countries live and run themselves. And after finally gathering enough support he plans to put that knowledge to use to create a kingdom of learning, Culture and acceptance.

One of his main missions is to create a culture where people are judged by their merits and actions rather than their Race or station in life. I believe a good way to foster this is to have a diverse population, Haflings, Elves, dwarves And what not all have special skills that could be useful to society. Having all these different races come together and try to survive in the early stages of colonization will hopefully create a bond between the different species. Of course in this world the humans are the predominant species by a large margin. And the relative closeness of Tian Xie Means that there could be a lot of Oriental Influence Leaking over from immigrants.

Kingdom builder campaigns are in many ways vastly different from regular campaigns. Though there still will be dungeon crawling and active adventuring the campaigns are predominantly social in nature. Actually if you want to Take a look through the rules here's the link http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building

I'm not sure if you've looked through the sorcerer spell list for Pathfinder but it is EXTENSIVE. And The sheer application of magic towards a social environment is unprecedented. But unfortunately to my knowledge there exists no countries in this world that covet magic in such a way. So we need to figure out how to best foster this kind of atmosphere. And after some thinking I came up with what I believe to be the best solution. Building the largest university of magic in the world. A proverbial white tower, where spell casters of all schools will be able to come and advance their learning of magic. But something like that would be incredibly expensive so I'm thinking of subsidizing it by the means of Integration. To join the school you must become a citizen of the country. Two choices will be given as you enter. For the younger or less magically educated, They will be enrolled in the White Towers magical education programs. This will help foster a generation of new and competent spell casters. After that I just need to figure out a way to have them become part of the state. Perhaps for further learning they could choose several branches to enter. Military or agricultural. Educational or commercial. To be honest the main goal would be to tie every competent mage to the state In some fashion so they Would be contributing to the kingdom via economic means or cultural.

Being able to offer universal and cheap healing to the populace would be an incredible feat. That alone I think would attract some serious tourism and immigration. Being able to supply and subsidize one or two particular churches might accomplish such a task.

It is actually possible to create your own demi-plane for a couple hours which could easily serve as a safe council room. And just recently I played this text based Space-age game. It was fascinating because there was a plethora of different species and aliens, but even more there were entire companies that revolve Around taking the interesting genes from these different aliens and creatures and creating splices that they would sell on the market. These splices would change let's say a human into a fuzzy panda humanoid. Or a fox girl. There were whole societies that were built around particular interests on how They wanted to look. I think introducing bizarre and crazy fads like that into our own campaign would be fantastic! But my top priority is making sure hate and discrimination is Nye eradicated from Our culture.

Oh and I probably should've mentioned this earlier but the main statistics that I have to deal with while governing the Kingdom are these : economy, stability and loyalty. So almost all decisions will be affecting one of those three.

On another note how do you feel about blood sports? gladiatorial sports in Particular. Now for obvious reasons slavery is going to be heavily illegal but I still think a gladiator sport is still viable. For starters we could roll with giving violent offenders a choice of the forced hard labour or serving out their sentence as a gladiator. Now I can't take credit for this next idea as I sobbed in a very interesting anime but here's how we can keep the coliseum full of willing participants. The Coliseum will have five different residential areas. Each will be more luxurious than the next the first obviously starting off with a basic bed in a tiny corner with basic uninteresting food and drink. After defeating several other Gladiators Or monsters They will move up a level into a more luxurious and easy life. A better apartments better food and of course more recognition and fame. Everyone but the convicts are allowed to leave when they want to and the Colosseum will have trainers to teach all contestants wanting to learn about particular fighting styles. So the Colosseum will also be attractive to potential fighters wanting to train, earn some money and gain some Recognition.

I think your Dark-Elf half is shining through: you want a utopian colony but the practical suggestions are branding, forced labour and blood-sports!

[more to come]

Well okay I must admit the Colosseum is my personal preference.... But as I mentioned even the prisoners would have a choice of whether they wanted to enter it or not!

trust me there's nothing I would like more than to have a criminal system based on rehabilitation like The Scandinavian countries But in this kind of setting that's just not viable in this scenario you gotta make compromises. Choices between utopian practicality and necessity

Ghost of Hobb Past discussing realism v. fantasy with Past Seth wrote:
There is no "realistic" number or type of zombies.

Nor is there a "realistic" amount of water and food in an apocalypse that could be modeled by this game of this sort. Even the most detailed simulation could not predict the sheer chaos and randomness that an apocalypse represents.

There are no "realistic" arguments but there are "unfun" arguments.

You don't need to go to "Scandinavia" (3 countries with fairly different legal systems) to find a punishments beside death, branding, and forced labour. Also you are wizards!

Saying you really, really want a rehabilitation-based justice system but this fan-hack of a fantasy RPG has you in an unbreakable arm-lock and is forcing you to implement capital punishment is plain kooky. A Dark Elf wizard (and friends) setting up a Magical City in the middle of a mammoth-packed Australia jungle is fine - but having any justice system not based on a mish-mash of medieval stereotypes is unrealistic?

If you want corporeal punishment in your system - embrace it! Why not? This is an alternate reality for exploring just such topics - this freedom is the joy of roleplaying and fantasy. But to claim you are forced to implement such methods by 'the setting' is too Pontius Pilate.

Polymorph criminals into a mice for a year, brain-control the society to prevent crime, use spirits to interrogate, use time magic to solve crime, ostracize criminals to other dimensions, set up a golem police force, ect.... the options are almost endless when magic-users rule.

Where do even you expect all these "criminals" to be coming from? You seem to be importing the population and such tight communities rarely have the levels of crime seen in alienated mega-cities or feuding tribes. As long as your colonists/citizens aren't  mostly Chaotic Evil, crime should be a fairly minor factor not the primary focus. Even if you are planning on an influx of tourists (?!) you shouldn't need more than an dispute resolution system.

This is nothing wrong with importing modern North American's obsession with punishing crime (instead of preventing crime) into a fantasy game. I've enjoyed reading about the dark enforcers of Vampire law, the brutal tribal punishments of Werewolves, legalistic violations of the 'Code of Hermes' in Ars Magica. Just understand that this obsession is not 'realistic', a reflection of 'human nature', or an essential part of society.

Sigh As much as I would like to not admit how you thoroughly deconstructed my argument, well... Let's just say you would make a wonderful Golden Dragon mentor

I suppose I was focusing on creating a system to prevent the worse case scenario. Though it's true were starting off with a colony this is in many ways a rich land with an abundance of resources and I'm an ambitious man with eyes on expanding. My goal is to create a system where every corner of society benefits the people. Everything and everyone works towards the happiness and well-being of the majority of the population. (Hence criminals Clearing forests and building houses) 100 prisoners with a mark of justice being watched by five guards clearing out forests and building roads is a pretty effective system, But it would be better to focus on domestic policies and laws to prevent the necessity of crime.

And on the subject of magic, many of the message you mentioned require high level spells. Unfortunately most of the Spells that have the highest application for a country require metric uses of level 10 and up, Which as you might know is significantly high for NPC's. Though I love the idea of having a Golem police force and maybe even a construction force of them as well.

I really enjoy these conversations - it is not too often I get to mix fantasy & criminology. The original question you posed about how to shape society toward the best future has haunted humanity for 1000s of years. Even just agreeing that the objective might be "the greatest good for the greatest number of people" is hard to get agreement on. So the sociological implications of the three key stats ("economy, stability and loyalty") makes me dizzy.

When I brain-storm ideas I realize I'm not taking spell level into account - but finding how to use low level spells is always fun. The goal of any old school MU was to get maximum effect for minimum spell level. There uses to '0 level' spells called 'cantrips' that did minor effects lick cause hiccups or change the color of something. These did not count against the spell total - so you would try stuff like changing any enemy's eye colour to clear so they didn't reflect light and thus the enemy was blind.  Or changed the color of a relic, claimed it was an act of a god and you were his representative.

For crime control even a few low-level 'mind' spell could make an effective detective squad. There reputation should do most of the work...

The mention of SciFi Furries and Australia reminds me on the great TMNT supplement 'Mutants Down Under'



Might as well do Mad Max in its original country... it had riding insects, airships, hand-crossbows, dreamtime powers, cool marsupial animals to anthropomorphize





Looking up these pictures I see the book is being labeled "racist" for its portrayal of Aborigine Australia culture on some forums Likely True - but it was more 'Crocodile Dundee racist' not 'KKK racist'

This article appeared on Counterpunch.org yesterday and is too coincidental not to post here: 

The Dirty Secret of Utopia

John Pilger wrote:Utopia, a vast and remote region in the “red heart” of Australia. The nearest town is Alice Springs, more than 200 miles across an ancient landscape of spinifex and swirling skeins of red dust. The first Europeans who came here, perhaps demented by the heat, imagined a white utopia that was not theirs to imagine; for this is a sacred place, the homeland of the oldest, most continuous human presence on earth.

Utopia is only part of Australia where Aboriginal people had won federally-legislated land rights. Here, they had administered their homelands with the dignity of self-determination and connection to land and culture and, as Amnesty reported, a 40 per cent lower mortality rate.


[Until] an extraordinary episode known as “the Intervention”. This is Australia’s dirty secret.In 2007, the Prime Minister sent the army into Indigenous communities in the Northern Territory to “rescue children” who, claimed his minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Mal Brough, were being abused by paedophile gangs in “unthinkable numbers”.

Subsequently exposed as a fraud by the Australian Crime Commission the “intervention” nonetheless allowed the  government to destroy many of the vestiges of self-determination in the Northern Territory.

When I began filming Indigenous Australia some thirty years ago, a global campaign was under way to end apartheid in South Africa. Having reported from South Africa, I was struck by the similarity of white supremacy and the compliance, defensiveness and indifference of people who saw themselves as liberal. For example, black incarceration in Australia is greater than that of black people in apartheid South Africa. Indigenous people go to prison, are beaten up in custody and die in custody as a matter of routine. In despairing communities, children as young as ten take their own lives.

The situation in Utopia can be compared to Attawapiskat, where 11 youths attempted suicide this weekend leading to yet another public crisis, or the Wikwemikong the only unceded land in Ontario.  I have found Australia to be Canada's southern twin with eerie similarities in culture & history - which is way my poor knowledge of that countries history is embarrassing. 

I tried to rectify that with a few hours of reading last night. The situation in Australia toward Indigeous people might be grimmer than Canada.
Why?

1) There is a legal concept called Terra nullius meaning "No ones' Land" which means the land is unoccupied by 'real people' and thus can be claimed by conquest. In Canada, B.C was declared Terra nullius despite the sizable First Nation tribal coastal kingdoms and inland villages there, this has led to a legal limbo where never having acknowledged Aboriginal land ownership no treaties were made so B.C remains largely unceded land. In Australia the whole continent was declared Terra nullius! The wiki on the subject has one section for Australia and one section for the rest of the world (including BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius

2) I had never heard of the 'Australian frontier wars' until last night - but after reading about this period it seems Australian history toward Aborginals is like the American experience in the 'American Indian Wars' where long periods of military and colonist 'ethnic cleansing' violence played a major role.

To say this is different than the Canadian experience is not to whitewash a colonial history of residential schools, 'concentration camps' in the prairies (see 'Clearing the Plains'), or 'ethnic cleansing' of the Beothuk in Newfoundland by colonists, but the American and Australian experiences are significantly bloodier. The 'frontier wars' lasted from first contact  to the 1930s and left tens of thousands of Aboriginal murdered by White colonists. I have not dove deeply in the literature on the subject because I know how ugly this type of war is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_frontier_wars

3) A history with legal denial and government-sanctioned slaughter of the Aboriginal people is never going to be a popular topic. This has led to the Australian 'History wars' where the interpretation of colonial history and national identity is so hotly contested it resembles the American left-v-right 'culture wars'. Until the 1970s the "Great Australian Silence" prevailed and colonization was present in the most positive light with no mention of the 'Australian frontier wars'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_wars

Well, now my Australian History (Colonization) skill is at 3%. Last night it was at 1%.  

And as for the debate of RPGing colonizing exotic lands that have slightly hidden but very real histories of violent racist colonizing - there is no easy answer and it is hard to avoid. I would avoid polarizing 'culture war' attitudes that would catagorized all attempts as either "purely racist" or "just fun entertainment" and try to struggle with them instead. A longtime ago I read a letter in Dragon that RPGing was about working on your 'moral imagination', I dismissed it because D&D was all about slitting Orc throats after casting a Sleep spell but at middle-age I see there is some unavoidable truth to that statement.